38-56 Winchester

By: George Carlson

I didn’t trade for the 1886 because it's a lever or a Winchester.  The reason was I wanted to hunt with a hundred plus year old piece of steel and wood.   I'm not into the "Winchester" name or “lever guns” like some guys. In fact, for years I just carried only my ‘ol 50/70 Govt. trapdoor Springfield during elk and deer seasons. But I've been there, done that, and it was time to try something new. The barrel on the Winchester had been cut to 22 inches, and you could tell it was a plain and simple parts gun. With screws buggered up and wood not quite factory fit, it had been all mine since a trade back in 1989 at a gun show.

Six years before my Winchester followed me home, a good friend had acquired an 1895 Marlin in 38-56 Win that had been deeded to him from his Dad’s estate.  He brought it over and asked me if it was shootable and if there was any way to find ammunition for it. The gun was definitely sound enough to shoot, but finding loaded ammo, or even finding empty brass proved to be a yearlong saga.  Finally at a gun show a fellow had a few old Winchesters and some examples of his hand loads for several of those old big vintage cartridges. Twenty loaded 58-56’s made out of 45-70 cases were purchased, and in due time that Marlin was fired for the first time in probably 60 years. This was in February out in the Dakotas, mind you.  It was twenty below zero and bunghole deep in snow. About all I could do was see how close the holes would be in a snow bank.  The spent cases were mailed back to the guy that loaded them with instructions to assemble more of the same.

After the next batch of brass was emptied, an attempt to reload them was made. It was the start of my self-taught lessons on loading the 38-56.  Using a 9mm sizing die to size the case mouths seemed to work okay. Two boxes of Hornady 220 grain .375 were all we started with.  With an assortment of other loading dies on hand, we found one that worked to seat bullets fairly straight. 

Very collectable Peters 38-56

Slowly, I started accumulating moulds and brass. I purchased a used RCBS die set at a gun show. To make 38-56 cases, I learned how to make my own brass out of annealed 45/70s.  Once the cases were annealed, it's a snap to make 38-56's out of 45/70's.  Just take your time and pull the cases out after every 1/4" or so, just see how things are going, and there's still a light film of lube left by rubbing your lube moistened fingers over the case again.  If you fail to anneal, your case failure will soar. 38-56 case lengths are exactly the same 2.10” as is the parent 45-70.

A friend let me use his SAECO 288 grain plain base mould, but nearly all the results were dismal.  Later the Winchester and RCBS moulds I had acquired turned out to be too small measuring .375” and .377”. The term, “angle of deer” comes into play here with groups starting at 6”.  I hadn’t learned the trick of using aluminum tape to make them larger at that point yet. Un-sized bullets never shot satisfactorily for me.

At a very small gun show over in Minnesota a few years ago, a dealer had two Ideal 375296 moulds on his table that I picked up. One was hollow point, the other a regular flat nose. Neither had ever been used. They weigh 244 grain and 268 grain respectively. I found both bullets shoot about the same point of impact with almost all loads and had to be sized to .379 for my gun. Lyman, RCBS, and SAECO, have gas check mould designs that should give similar results to what I got with the 375296 Lyman’s

.

Both of my Lyman moulds have a bit of a taper, so I can seat them out to 2.713”. Supposedly Winchester didn’t use a lead (leade?) on their chambers, so the rifling starts right in the chamber. The two Winchester factory rounds I have measure less than 2.50 in length. The Winchester 1885, and 1886’s were chambered for cartridges like the .45-90 Govt. that were 2.790” in length, so there’s no problems in over all length. Colt and Marlin rifles are limited to 2.60”.

L/R 220 grain Hornady, 246 grain Winchester, 268 grain RCBS, 245 grain 375296HP, 268 grain 375296 FN, 288 grain SAECO.

Each shooter has his own idea as to what minimum group size meets his needs. I can remember while in the service out in Oregon, the guys used to hang up a paper plate and if they could hit it at 100 yards, they were happy to go hunting.  George Nonte’s book “Cartridge Conversions,” listed 41 to 45 grains of 3031 for a good place to start. The hunting load I settled on was with the hollow point mould using 42 grains of 3031. It chronograph's 1880 FPS.  Phil Sharpe’s “Complete Guide To Handloading” lists a max smokeless load of 46.8 grains of 17-½ powder (long obsolete) under a 260 grain jacketed bullet and getting 1890 feet per second. 17 ½ is the forerunner of IMR 3031. My 1886 was made in 1893, two years before nickel steel smokeless barrels were produced, so I consider my load as max. I use .500” (overall diameter of the base) as max web expansion

Because of the rarity of my Hollow point mould, and the small diameter of the Winchester mould, I opted to not include them in the load chart.  All loads produced 4” or less. Standard large rifle primers were used in all loads except Varget. Varget needs help with a wad, and possibly a magnum primer.

These loads shoot fine in my rifle. I suggest reducing loads by 15% when starting to develop a load and shoot only in rifles in good conditions.  Remember, these rifles are sometimes older than the shooter.

Bullet	Weight	Diameter	Powder	Weight (grains)
37-250-FN RCBS	260.0	.377”	Reloader 7	30.0
37-250-FN RCBS	260.0	.377”	H-4198	26.0
37-250-FN RCBS	260.0	.377”	IMR 3031	38.0
37-250-FN RCBS	260.0	.377”	H-4895	34.0
375296 Lyman	268.0	.379”	SR-4759	28.0
375296 Lyman	268.0	.379”	Reloader 7	31.0
375296 Lyman	268.0	.379”	H-4198	27.0
375296 Lyman	268.0	.379”	IMR 3031	42.0
375296 Lyman	268.0	.379”	H-4895	39.0
375296 Lyman	268.0	.379”	Varget	38.0
375296 Lyman	268.0	.379”	IMR 4350	48.0
375296 Lyman	268.0	.379”	H-4831sc	54.0
571 Saeco	288.0	.379”	IMR 3031	25.0

L/R 38-56 FMJ, Win, 38-56 SP Win, 45-70-405 Win,

Annealed 45-70, My 38-56 hand load, 45-70 Frankford Arsenal,

33 Winchester, 348 Winchester. Note the deep case cannelure

on some of the above cases.

To crimp or not to crimp, that is the question. If you’re shooting a single shot like the Winchester 1885, of course not. In a tubular magazine, the only way to tell is load the magazine and leave the cartridges in there while firing several rounds. Then remove and measure them to see if the bullets have moved. If the brass has enough tension, and your expander ball is small enough, my guess is no crimp is needed. If you need to crimp, start with a very light one, because crimps, especially with lead bullets, do affect accuracy. I don’t crimp, and haven’t had any trouble.

 If you want to spend a little time on the Internet, finding info for the 38-56 W.C.F is as easy using your favorite search engine. Now brass and bullets are fairly easy to find.  A search on reloading forums might bring up a few loads too, but you need to be careful doing that. Also I would suggest you reduce my loads at least 15% before you start at what I’ve listed.

I'll admit to one negative thing about using those old lever guns.  Most people don't even think about it until you carry one of those heavy firearms all day. The lack of a sling when you’re hunting all day makes for very tired arms.  I have since found a muzzleloader sling works well. It fits over the butt plate and around the barrel.  No drilling needed.

Winchester 1886 made in 1893

It's not a long-range outfit by any means, but last year a buck stood up from his bed being hidden in a gully out in an open pasture about 200 yards. I knew I had to aim over his back a bit. It was just a guess on hold over. I had used the gun a few times on steel targets at 150 yards, the bullet whizzed right through him. He took 4 steps and the lights went out for good. Those 'ol girls still do the job even after 110 years.

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